Question 3: Why Can’t I Ask My Kid’s Teacher What Math Group She’s In?
posted Thursday September 9th, 2010
OK, so today’s question is about Annabelle.
Last week I asked her fourth grade teacher what I thought was an innocent question: Is Annabelle in the lowest math group?
Turns out, that’s a big no-no. How did I get this far without realizing it? I guess it’s because the question I’ve always wanted to ask up to now is, Is Annabelle in the highest reading group? I never did, because a. that seemed untoward, sort of braggy, and b. I was always able to figure out the answer.
And I’ve pretty much surmised that she’s in the middle group for math, which is just fine. But I panicked last week, worried that maybe I’ve been so focused on Sophie that Annabelle had slipped when I wasn’t looking. So I fired off this email:
i’m curious to know where annabelle is, in terms of math. is she in the lowest group? our goal for her is to be happy and to learn but not to make school a pressure-cooker, but i am curious about math — if she’s in the very lowest group i’d like to consider meeting with the teacher [this note was to the homeroom teacher, not the math teacher] and discussing what we can do better. (i could be completely wrong about this — to be honest i’m basing it on some of the other kids she mentioned are in math with her, which i know can be a dangerous way of trying to guess!) if she’s in the middle, i’m totally cool with that. in any case i won’t try to move her or cause trouble, i just want to be sure we’re doing what we can on our end to ensure some success. (i’m terrible at math so my expectations aren’t super-high!)
I got this back:
Thank you for your support. Annabelle is working right on grade-level in math. I’ll have more information after tomorrow when we take our Fall NWEA in math, but our first quarter pre-assessments shows her to have a great foundation of skills for the year. There could be a chance throughout the year as we continue to assess that she shifts into other groups based on her need and ability level, but it truly does depend on how well Annabelle performs on pre-assessments for each unit. I appreciate your willingness to be open about her placement and understanding.
OK, that was a wholly unsatisfying answer, if you ask me. I ran this by a teacher friend and she made a face. No, she said, you are not supposed to ask. (This is a woman I really trust.)
I changed the subject, embarrassed, but I still wonder why it’s such a BFD. She’s my kid — isn’t it my business?
Maybe mentioning my guessing criteria was not the swiftest move. Between that and the nasty note I wrote on the Declaration of Independence permission slip and the even nastier note I wrote about what BS the Anti-Bully Pledge is, I’m sure I’m real popular with this teacher. I better get over to the school and do some Xerox penance.
I always wonder why it’s not “right” to ask questions about your kid, no matter what they’re doing. I know, I know, it’s like asking a teacher to recommend a teacher for the next year, not something you’re supposed to do. But I still don’t get it.
You are absolutely right to ask the question. To some extent, the teacher is right to defer until the testing scores come in, but I think you should always go in and ask for an explanation of those damned things. What do they mean, where is your child, what can you do to help her if she’s not where she should be, and maybe in your case, what can you do to challenge her a little beyond where she is. I’d wait until those results are available then go in and ask to review them (take Ray, seems sometimes like they look at us like the hysterical mothers) as well as her ask for an explanation of the pre assessment results. She’s your kid, you have every right to have this info so you can help her at home.
I too have written snarky notes on the odd activities the fourth graders do on occasion. (For instance, I’m not a fan of pressuring kids this young to become sales staff for the PTA fundraiser.) I send these notes off and then regret them later, reminding myself that the teachers are caught in a middle ground between parents and administration. So I’m taking a pause on note writing for a while.
I suspect that the kids move between math groups at times during the year based on the pre-assessments (both measured and intuitive) so one day they’re up, the next time they’re down….
Also note that the teacher points to strong math skills (adding, subtracting, multiplication and division) which is good news.
Because I think it damn brave of you to share your feelings of embarrassment and confusion about the response to the note you wrote, I will throw in my two cents.
Here is the problem as I see it: Your note asking which math group Annabelle was in (the lowest being not O.K., the middle group being acceptable) seem to imply that you determine how well Annabelle is doing in math by comparing her to her peers, i.e., Annabelle’s math group placement within her class.
I read the teacher’s response as an attempt to clarify how she, the teacher, determines Annabelle progress in math. The teacher determines Annabelle’s progress in math by the results of her quarterly math assessment tests.
You might be spot-on with your observations about Annabelle having better math skills than the kids you know in the lower math group but the “I track my kid’s academic progress by comparing it to the academic progress of other kids” technique is often unreliable for many reasons and to put it frankly, can make you nuts. I am speaking from experience here.
Therefore, I keep any questions to my kids’ teachers squarely focused on My Child. There is nary a mention of other children or their schoolwork.
Side note: I could see this being a bit of a conundrum for you because when you want to determine appropriate placement and interventions for Sophie there is probably substantial discussion regarding her abilities and progress compared to her first grade classmates.
noan — you are so totally right, i’m sure it was the mention of other kids that threw the whole thing off. i was trying in my bumbling way to be completely honest with the teacher, and that’s the only measure i had, unfortunately. (i am not adept enough to look at assignments and be able to tell what level annabelle’s at!) i agree that kids shouldn’t be compared to other kids, but the truth is that that’s exactly how the system is set up and it’s called the AIMS test. we get those notices, that’s all that seems to really matter to anyone (not to me, but i get that we are a society here even if i am against rote recitation of the declaration of independence) in the educational system, so it seems to me fair to know what third of the group my kid falls in. that said, you are right, it’s dangerous territory!
Amy – Teachers cannot under any cirumstances answer anything about other students when speaking to you about your child. Plus – you probably wouldn’t want a teacher who would! Then you wouldn’t know if she is also talking about your child to other parents! Besides, it’s not about class rank – at least not yet – it’s about how she personally is handling the curriculum and whether or not she is growing and responding to instruction. If she is considered on-level – no worries.
Seems okay to me. Why not ask what you want? You may not get the answers that you want but that’s not really the issue is it? At least it shows the teacher that you are an interested parent. And I do ask my teacher/team to recommend the best match for my daughter- I approached each teacher to see what their response way to the idea of having Kayli in their class. I just don’t care what is supposed to be okay really….
I’m a teacher, and I’d say it’s perfectly ok to ask how your kid is doing. I think the only thing that would give me pause is the comparison bit that Noan mentioned. Otherwise, you’re perfectly within your rights to know how your child is performing in any subject at any time. And here (in California) you actually get a yearly printout showing how your child is performing within their peer group based on their standardized test scores. Does the AZ Dept. of Ed send out anything like that?
Those AIMS (WASL up here) tests drive everybody crazy. The teachers end up being forced to teach to the test so theirs isn’t a “failing school” etc. You always have a right to know how your child is doing. I agree with the others that waiting for the results of the pre-test would make sense. Do the parents get the results of the pre-test? If not, ask or them. If you just get scores, ask for a meeting to review what Annabelle did. I remember requesting an item analysis on a standardized reading test my daughter took. It took some insisting, but finally they let me see the test. A quick review of the items she missed told me what she was having trouble with. Before that, all I knew was that she had scored unexpectedly low.
Are the AIMS goals and objectives for each grade are online, I know they are in Washington. They can be a guide for you in checking how Annabelle’s progress.
Ha – this post made me smile – I agree with Noan – but as someone with twins – one in the ‘top’ group in kindy and the other – well she is in the bottom – I totally get what you are saying. The teacher is of course correct in the need to rely on assessment data rather than peers. For example, my son is one of three in the top reading group – and I know he is actually third in that group being on a significantly lower reading level than the ‘top’ student. He is however the ‘top’ student amongst the three top performers in the maths groups – so there you have it – why comparison with peers gives you some idea but is not really as useful as individual results.
My daughter has DS and at the start of the year I was a bit nervous of ‘breaking’ the news to other parents when the question was asked in the playground – that yes – their child was in the same group with my daughter for reading (and I never mentioned that in some things at that time – she was doing better than their ‘typical’ child!!!).
It is helpful to know where overall your child fits – but more important is knowing how much and what sort of help they might need to reach their potential. I know our schools teachers really rely on assessment results to justify the placement and grouping of students. But then for me it is easier at the moment cos they are in the same grade at primary school – I have the top and bottom range covered – so any parent wondering about those groups just has to ask me who is grouped with my kids really lol!